Formula 1 Switches to 1.6 liter 4 cylinder turbo motors

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Originally Posted by Sticky

You have a dyno to show to back that up? I would really like to see something like that. If turbo technology has come that far that is incredible.

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I'll find info.

I'm going to make a thread comparing Parallel, Sequential and Compound turbo setups so anyone that is uninformed can look it up easily on this site.

Compound turbocharging has been done for a while, I think even on some WWII aircraft, and is common on diesels. It is tricky to setup. The only marketed one I have seen for a automobile gas racing engine is this one from Boost Logic.

http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/817.jpg
http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/818.jpg
http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/816.jpg
http://www.boostlogic.com/xcart/prod...?productid=160

They say it feels like a small shot of nitrous spooling a large turbo, but it's there all the time. You basically have a two stage compressor, with the first stage being the compressed air from the tiny turbo, and the second stage compressing the already compressed air using the large turbo. This is NOT like a sequential setup, in this setup one turbo is actually force-feeding another turbo.

Sequential setups just trade off exhaust gas from two different size turbos.

Makes 20psi of boost at 2800RPMs on a turbo'd non-turbo 2JZ!!! (3.0L)

Pictures of turbine sizing for Compound Turbocharging.

http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/819.jpg
http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/820.jpg

Early test dyno: (notice the linear torque rise instead of typical turbo curve coming onto boost)

http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/821.jpg

reminds me of a twinscrew set up

Yeah and that's only half the dyno! That motor makes 7000RPM, an you can see the power just rising and rising, at least 700whp or close, with crazy spool!

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

I'll find info.

I'm going to make a thread comparing Parallel, Sequential and Compound turbo setups so anyone that is uninformed can look it up easily on this site.

Compound turbocharging has been done for a while, I think even on some WWII aircraft, and is common on diesels. It is tricky to setup. The only marketed one I have seen for a automobile gas racing engine is this one from Boost Logic.

http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/817.jpg
http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/818.jpg
http://60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/816.jpg
http://www.boostlogic.com/xcart/prod...?productid=160

They say it feels like a small shot of nitrous spooling a large turbo, but it's there all the time. You basically have a two stage compressor, with the first stage being the compressed air from the tiny turbo, and the second stage compressing the already compressed air using the large turbo. This is NOT like a sequential setup, in this setup one turbo is actually force-feeding another turbo.

Sequential setups just trade off exhaust gas from two different size turbos.

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If this works successfully why isn't it used on more cars?

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Originally Posted by Sticky

If this works successfully why isn't it used on more cars?

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Just look at it!

Not many people can even pull it off properly. AMS was doing one for the EVO 9 or 8 for a dyno competition but they kept having problems tuning and didn't have enough time to sort it out.

The one they built had a compressed air feed AND intake with a motorized block off plate. Look how complicated it is.

http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1044.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1045.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1046.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1047.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1048.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1049.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1050.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1051.jpg
http://www.60-130.com/images/imported/2010/12/1052.jpg

They ended just going with a GT42R and shooting for big peak horsepower. They won!

Link: http://forums.evolutionm.net/automot...100octane.html

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Just look at it!

Not many people can even pull it off properly. AMS was doing one for the EVO 9 or 8 for a dyno competition but they kept having problems tuning and didn't have enough time to sort it out.

They one they built had a compressed air feed AND intake with a motorized block off plate. Look how complicated it is.

http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1044.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1045.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1046.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1047.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1048.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1049.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1050.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1051.jpg
http://www.benzboost.com/images/impo...10/12/1052.jpg

They ended just going with a GT42R and shooting for big peak horsepower. They won!

Link: http://forums.evolutionm.net/automot...100octane.html

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It does look ridiculously complex but if the benefits are as you say I would like to see more people try to get it down. It just looks awesome...

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Originally Posted by Sticky

It does look ridiculously complex but if the benefits are as you say I would like to see more people try to get it down. It just looks awesome...

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So would I. Maybe these new Formula 1 rules will help. :)

Race cars aren't supposed to be fuel efficient.

For the first time in my life I can honestly say I'd rather watch NASCAR than F1. In reality I will watch neither this year. Pathetic.

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Originally Posted by MHP LLC

Race cars aren't supposed to be fuel efficient.

For the first time in my life I can honestly say I'd rather watch NASCAR than F1. In reality I will watch neither this year. Pathetic.

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If they were 1200HP would it interest you?

I have the most fun watching rally racing in HD.

Very complicated system and the gains are not worth it. With todays turbo technology early spool from a big single is commonplace. There is no need for a system like that, it adds about 200 lbs of weight and not THAT much area under the curve. Thanks for the pics slicktop, though; that really shows how complicated a system can get.

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Originally Posted by DBFIU

Very complicated system and the gains are not worth it. With todays turbo technology early spool from a big single is commonplace. There is no need for a system like that, it adds about 200 lbs of weight and not THAT much area under the curve. Thanks for the pics slicktop, though; that really shows how complicated a system can get.

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I see, so needlessly complex for a little shift to the left? Still cool though...

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Originally Posted by Sticky

I see, so needlessly complex for a little shift to the left? Still cool though...

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I'd say it's more than a little shift. 20psi at 2800rpm with a 3.0L motor, no nitrous or two-step, is not really possible any other way, even with a twin-scroll and that quick spool valve.

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

If they were 1200HP would it interest you?

I have the most fun watching rally racing in HD.

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Nothing with 4 cylinders interests me. Rally's are cool, I'll give them that.

A road going race car should not be powered by a 4 banger however.

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Originally Posted by MHP LLC

Nothing with 4 cylinders interests me. Rally's are cool, I'll give them that.

A road going race car should not be powered by a 4 banger however.

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Would you argue that E30 M3s are a waste of time, as well as EVOs and STIs that have dominated Time Attack events? There are also some pretty crazy 4-banger hillclimb cars.

Not trying to be rude or anything, I respect your opinion. I am just trying to dig deeper and find out why you hate the 4-cylinder ICE.

I think they are all great, except for those fucking lame ass, wanna be cool, obnoxiously loud for no reason, air-cooled V-twins from Harley that are 1800cc but make like 60hp......

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Originally Posted by SlicktopTTZ

Would you argue that E30 M3s are a waste of time

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Different kind of era and different kind of car. The S14 was state of the art in the 80's.

I do respect 4 bangers, the F20C is very impressive I believe.